tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14594755.post1948904061548380180..comments2024-03-18T03:45:35.390-07:00Comments on Highered Intelligence: What Grades MeanMichael E. Lopezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09099375303426465228noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14594755.post-18975545462955485422012-01-05T04:49:09.859-08:002012-01-05T04:49:09.859-08:00The biggest problem is that admission at higher le...The biggest problem is that admission at higher level doesn't see how much the student is capable, how much he had worked he had during during whole life, but one C in master degree destroy the whole life hard works and consistent A's in bachelors and schools level. This has happened to me, one C is not allowing me to get PhD Scholarship. So what is your take on itUsman Shahidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01623824762900015329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14594755.post-56975200188388054942011-07-02T01:42:28.425-07:002011-07-02T01:42:28.425-07:00Yeah, it depresses me, too. For the same reason.
...Yeah, it depresses me, too. For the same reason.<br /><br />One of my English teachers once told me that Sisyphus' only escape was to love the rock.<br /><br />So I love the rock.Michael E. Lopezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099375303426465228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14594755.post-13416398285174129052011-07-01T18:57:32.612-07:002011-07-01T18:57:32.612-07:00I think we probably end up with very similar resul...I think we probably end up with very similar results. And I agree that an A is sufficiently far away from some of my students. But many of these students are not really hoping for an A, they are C students hoping for a B. I want them to be able to see that from where they stand. I think you probably feel the same way. <br />I agree that my pedagogical framing is certainly not how my students conceive of grades. <br />I guess for me the credentialing and signaling aspect of my job depress me, because I see my role as essentially irrelevant to that. Yes, every grade that I give does come with that implicit signature. But students curve themselves. My role as judge or evaluator is essentially irrelevant and redundant. My job is to put a rigorous, engaging, informational, and inspirational educational experience in front of the students as I can. <br />Which is a long way of saying that grading depresses me, because it often highlights the mismatch between the way the students see my job and the way I do.Cedarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13935627443458025397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14594755.post-72224186043114377022011-06-30T22:58:53.648-07:002011-06-30T22:58:53.648-07:00Cedar-
I totally understand your approach, and th...Cedar-<br /><br />I totally understand your approach, and the sort of Utilitarian analysis you've done with respect to learning outcomes. But (1) I'm not a Utilitarian, and (2) I'm a selfish bastard. It's all about ME at the end of the day.<br /><br />I <i>know</i> that the grades I give are being sent around on transcripts to people. When they send around a transcript that has an "A" that I've given, it's as if my students were taking a note that I've signed that says "Michael E. Lopez, Esq., JD MA, certifies that the work performed by this student met the "A" level of performance." Likewise for the B's, the C's, the D's, and even the F's.<br /><br />Not only do I know that the students are doing this -- I know that in many cases it's their <i>primary motivation</i> for taking the class in the first place. That knowledge makes it impossible for me to focus entirely on using grades as a pedagogic tool: they are a matter of my professional reputation, and I take that very seriously indeed.<br /><br />I'm all in favor of clear standards and rubrics; we don't disagree on that <i>at all</i>. But I've got my standards for undergraduate work, and an "A" is only within the range of possibility for all of my students on the most broad, encompassing sense of "within the range of possibility". Which may be how you meant it, in which case, once more, we don't disagree at all. <br /><br />But let me explain.<br /><br />I have students who can write A papers in 2 hours, and some who can do it in 10 hours. I have students who could (note the switch to the subjunctive) do it in 50 hours. <br /><br />But I also have students who could come to every single minute of every office hours session, who could ask for more help, and who still, in the 10 weeks I have these students, wouldn't be able to pull themselves up to an "A" for any given paper under any circumstances. <br /><br />It's not really their "fault" in any way, and I certainly don't want to give the impression that I'm prejudging the students' abilities. For those whose first work is abysmal, I hold open the possibility and the hope that their midterms were just the result of laziness, or being overworked, or maybe they are just probing the waters to see if I'm an easy grader. I'll talk to them, invite them to come talk to me about their papers, and so forth. <br /><br />But time and again the finals come in, and while sometimes my hopes are fulfilled, oft they are dashed against the rocks of my students' actual abilities.<br /><br />So it is in this sense that, yes, an A is "possible". Yes, they have the information they need to be able to do it. But, really, they can't. They haven't had enough writing instruction, enough practice with textual analysis, and with just 10 weeks I can't bring them up to speed. The best I can give is a bit of a crash course to take care of some of the more egregious problems. Excellent writing, as I'm sure you know, is hard. It requires a LOT of practice. Some of my students have thousands of hours of practice, and some of my students have maybe a couple of hundred.Michael E. Lopezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099375303426465228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14594755.post-28786556879858707582011-06-29T19:16:27.972-07:002011-06-29T19:16:27.972-07:00@Michael, I think you are probably balking at my p...@Michael, I think you are probably balking at my philosophy of testing and grading, which is this: Plan and design tests and grades to structure the process of a student's studying. Don't worry about providing a meaningful signal to anyone but your students.<br />I don't see my role at all to make grades meaningful to future employers, or graduate schools, or whatever selective purpose they will be used for. Not to say that I disagree with those purposes, but that I don't see my role as important in that. <br />Part of the reason I can abdicate this is that students put themselves on a curve. <br />We may be speaking differently, since I gather you probably grade more papers than I do. But I try to approach papers the same way. I give out a rubric, which is more or less a checklist, and an A is within the range of possibility for every student. I understand that in terms of ability and preparation, some students would have to take 10 hours to get an A, and some can only take 2. The students who need to devote 10 hours are often the least likely to do so. But when they are, I want to meet them and help them. I don't see the point in rewarding ability, but I want to reward conscientiousness (which is also just as correlated with college success as ability measures such as SAT)<br />For example, if I had a very dedicated ESOL student, who wanted to put in that 10 hours (or 12, or whatever) and came in to me asking for help, and followed my instructions to a T, I would hope that she would feel rewarded for that 10 hours, not just in improved mastery of the topic, but in the grade as well. If I gave her a C, I damn well better be able to show her the specific ways that she could have improved.<br />Seeking clarity in feedback and criteria need not mean lenient grading, as you imply. And clear criteria are of course not always possible in the real world, but they are a much better way of learning, in my opinion, and reduce some of the inherent unfairness endemic to higher education.Cedarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13935627443458025397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14594755.post-87099274453702082732011-06-29T11:45:40.072-07:002011-06-29T11:45:40.072-07:00Cedar-
I think I agree with almost everything you...Cedar-<br /><br />I think I agree with almost everything you say, except this:<br /><br /><i>"I think the goal should be that it be equally realizable to every student in the class."</i><br /><br />The way I read this -- which may not be the way you mean it -- is that the "A" level performance needs to be something within the actual ability of every student so that the grade itself is an expression of effort and attention, and not a question of talent.<br /><br />If that's how you mean it, then think I disagree with this, because I think that if you have your assignments set up so that the lowest-ability kid in your class actually has a realistic (and not just theoretical) shot at an "A", then you're grading way too leniently, and you won't get enough differentiation at the high end to make the grades useful for anything.<br /><br />This rather intractable problem can, of course, be palliated to the degree that you have ability tracking for your class composition. If all the students are in relatively the same ability ranges, then it's hardly a problem at all to have the A-level be attainable for each and every student.<br /><br />SO I guess there's two ways I could agree with you entirely: if we both agree that highly differentiated subject-area tracking is a good thing, then I think we don't disagree about the attainable "A". And if you meant what you said from a theoretical rather than practical view of attainability, then we probably don't disagree, either.Michael E. Lopezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099375303426465228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14594755.post-12599416555646682262011-06-29T08:05:04.500-07:002011-06-29T08:05:04.500-07:00I agree with many of your assessments of how stude...I agree with many of your assessments of how students perceive grades. <br />But judging from your examples, and your annoyance at how your students can complain about them, I approach grades differently.<br />I don't think students start with an A, but I think they should be able to see what they need to do to get an A. I think the goal should be that it be equally realizable to every student in the class, what the criteria will be for an A, before they hand in the assignment. <br />This is why I am in favor of using rubrics whenever possible, givign students the rubric in advance, and making it absolutely clear what will be on the exam. This need not sacrifice rigor ("the exam will consist of a subset of these 300 questions"). I think it is almost impossible to place good writing on a rubric, any more than it is to place a great meal on a rubric. But I think teaching often starts with recipes, and we shouldn't be afraid of helping students use recipes before we give them the keys to the kitchen.<br />I also notice that this cuts down on student negotiating, and focuses the conversation when they do.Cedarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13935627443458025397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14594755.post-78612487442314138952011-06-26T06:34:34.601-07:002011-06-26T06:34:34.601-07:00This reminds me of the scene in "Clueless&quo...This reminds me of the scene in "Clueless" where the student renegotiates her report card one teacher at a time until all her grades are high. Her father tells her he is extremely proud of this accomplishment, prouder than if she had actually earned the high marks. <br /><br />Your three suspicions are valid. There is also an extremely widespread practice of mixing all sorts of dross into the grading decision, such as a bunch of bonus points for passing in your lunch paperwork. It's hard to make grading useful as a form of instructive feedback under such circumstances.gallowshillbillynoreply@blogger.com